>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> TODAY WE WITNESSED ONE OF THE MOST HISTORIC AND CONSEQUENTIAL BILLS TO HAVE EVER PASSED THE SENATE.
>> THE U.S.
INCHES CLOSER TO SENDING STALLED MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE AND ISRAEL.
AS THE JORDANIAN KING JOINS PRESIDENT BIDEN TRYING TO REIGN IN NETANYAHU.
>>> POETS, WRITERS, MUSICIANS CAN INSPIRE PEOPLE TO FIND THE STRENGTH AND COURAGE TO RESIST.
>> WHEN BONO WENT TO BOSNIA.
MATT DAMON JOINS ME ABOUT THE TRIP TO SARAJEVO.
>>> BENJAMIN TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN THAT AMERICAN SUBURBS ARE UNRAVELING.
♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, CANDICE KING WIER, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LALAH AND MICKIE STRAUSS, SETON J. MELVIN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, ADDITIONAL SUPPORT BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
THE SENATE DID NOT PASS ABOUT PASSING THE AID PACKAGE FOR UKRAINE AND ISRAEL.
THERE'S NO GUARANTEE IT WILL MAKE IT THROUGH THE HOUSE WHERE MAGA-MINDED POLITICIANS ARE MORE HOSTILE TO SENDING FURTHER ASSISTANCE TO KYIV.
IN CAIRO, THE U.S. AND ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE CHIEFS ARE MEETING WITH INTERMEDIARIES TO HAMMER OUT A HOSTAGE DEAL AND A PAUSE IN THE WAR.
IN GAZA, ALL EYES ARE ON RAFAH WHERE PALESTINIANS ARE BRACING FOR A GROUND ASSAULT EVEN AS PRESIDENT BIDEN URGES ISRAEL TO HOLD OFF AND COME UP WITH A CLEAR PLAN ABOUT HOW TO ACHIEVE THE GOALS AND PROTECT CIVILIANS.
LAST NIGHT, JORDAN'S KING, THE FIRST ARAB LEADER TO FINISH THE WHITE HOUSE SINCE OCTOBER 7, CALLED FOR A CEASE-FIRE.
>> WE CANNOT AFFORD AN ISRAELI ATTACK ON RAFAH.
IT'S CERTAIN TO PRODUCE ANOTHER HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE.
THE SITUATION IS ALREADY UNBEARABLE FOR OVER A MILLION PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN PUSHED INTO RAFAH SINCE THE WAR STARTED.
WE CANNOT STAND BY AND LET THIS CONTINUE.
WE NEED A LASTING CEASE-FIRE NOW.
>> MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT WAS JORDAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER AND DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER UNDER KING ABDULLAH, HAVING BEEN JORDAN'S FIRST AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL IN 1995.
HE IS JOINING ME.
WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
YOU JUST HEARD YOUR KING SAY, QUOTE, WE CANNOT AFFORD AN ISRAELI ATTACK ON RAFAH.
DO YOU THINK THAT WILL MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE?
>> OVER A MILLION PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN PUSHED FROM NORTH GAZA TO THE BORDER OF EGYPT IN SOUTHERN GAZA.
ANY ATTACK ON RAFAH IS GOING TO RESULT IN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS, PROBABLY TRYING TO FLEE INTO EGYPT.
WE TALK ABOUT THE CREDIBLE PLAN TO PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING.
BUT, FRANKLY, I DON'T SEE ANY PLAN THAT CAN BE CREDIBLE IN PREVENTING -- THEY HAVE NOWHERE TO GO.
THEY CANNOT GO BACK TO THEIR HOMES.
THEIR HOMES ARE GONE IN NORTHERN GAZA.
THEY CAN'T GO BACK BECAUSE ISRAEL IS PREVENTING THEM FROM DOING SO.
THEY HAVE NOWHERE TO GO.
>> WHAT THEN DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO UNFOLD?
DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANY HOPE FOR THE NEGOTIATIONS THAT ARE HAPPENING TO GET SOME KIND OF A PAUSE IN ORDER TO HAVE A HOSTAGE AND PRISONER SWAP BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL?
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO PREVENT THIS MOVEMENT OF PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS THAT YOU DESCRIBE?
>> OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE EFFORTS TO ACHIEVE A CEASE-FIRE.
AS THE KING SAID IN HIS MEETING WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHAT IS NEEDED IS A LASTING CEASE-FIRE.
WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF A TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE AFTER WHICH ISRAEL IS GOING TO BOMB GAZA AGAIN?
WE NEED ONE LASTING CEASE-FIRE.
AND THEN WE NEED A POLITICAL HORIZON.
THIS CANNOT KEEP GOING ON EVERY FEW YEARS.
THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED OCCUPATION.
ISRAEL HAS BEEN OCCUPYING THE GAZA STRIP AND THE WEST BANK.
WHAT IS NEEDED IS A CREDIBLE PLAN TO END THE OCCUPATION.
NOT JUST A CEASE-FIRE IN WHICH HOSTAGES ARE RELEASED, AS THEY SHOULD BE, BUT THEN GAZA GETS BOMBED AGAIN BY THE ISRAELIS.
IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING GOES FAR BEYOND TRYING TO ERADICATE HAMAS MILITARY CAPABILITY.
THEY ARE TRYING TOTRANSFER, WHICH IS WHY JORDAN IS WORRIED.
IT DOES NOT WANT THE PALESTINIAN MAJORITY, BECAUSE THE PALESTINIANS ARE A MAJORITY IN AREAS UNDER ISRAEL'S CONTROL.
THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE IS TO AFFECT A MASS TRANSFER FROM -- OF PALESTINIANS FROM GAZA TO EGYPT AND THEN LATER MAYBE FROM THE WEST BANK TO JORDAN.
THIS IS WHAT THE KING IS GUARDING AGAINST.
>> AS YOU KNOW -- WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE, BECAUSE THAT WAS THE FEELING AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ISRAELI COUNTEROFFENSIVE.
THE U.S. AND ALL THE EUROPEAN ALLIES HAVE SAID THAT IS A NON-STARTER.
THEY CANNOT FORCIBLY TRANSFER.
NETANYAHU SAYS THAT'S NOT HIS AIM.
AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY, MANY OF HIS FAR RIGHT COALITION PARTNERS HAVE SAID DIFFERENT THINGS.
EGYPT AND JORDAN STOOD UP VERY, VERY FORCEFULLY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR SAYING THEY WOULD NOT ACCEPT PALESTINIANS BEING FORCED OUT OF EITHER SIDE.
DO YOU THINK YOU CAN STILL HOLD THE LINE, OR -- AT SOME POINT, DOES A BORDER BREAK?
I DON'T KNOW.
HOW DO YOU SEE IT TRANSPIRING?
>> WELL, THAT'S THE WORRY.
OF COURSE, THERE MIGHT VERY WELL BE A BORDER BREAK.
THE OPTIONS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO JORDAN AND EGYPT ARE EITHER TO LET PALESTINIANS IN AND THEREBY EMPTY PALESTINIAN LAND OF THEIR INHABITANTS -- AND REMEMBER, EVERY PALESTINIAN THAT LEFT IN 1948 WAS NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN BY ISRAEL.
DESPITE THE PRESENCE OF U.N.
RESOLUTIONS TO THE CONTRARY.
YOU LET THEM IN AND EMPTY PALESTINIAN LAND OF ITS INHABITANTS, OR YOU DON'T LET THEM IN AND YOU ARE FACED WITH A HUGE HUMANITARIAN PROBLEM.
THAT'S THE KIND OF SCENARIO EGYPT AND JORDAN WANT TO GUARD AGAIN.
THE TWO COUNTRIES HAVE SUCCESSFULLY, AT LEAST, BROUGHT ATTENTION TO THE ISSUE OF MASS TRANSFER TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.
TODAY, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS STANDING FIRM AGAINST MASS TRANSFER IN A WAY THAT IT DID NOT BEFORE.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT NETANYAHU IS NOT GOING TO TRY TO AFFECT THAT.
IT'S CLEAR TODAY THAT WHILE THE UNITED STATES IS PUSHING NETANYAHU NOT TO GO INTO RAFAH WITHOUT A CREDIBLE PLAN AS PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID, THAT NETANYAHU HAS NO INTENTION OF HEEDING THAT ADVICE OF THE AMERICANS.
H WANTS TO STAY IN POWER AND IS KILLING MASS PEOPLE.
THEY ARE LOOKING INTO WHETHER IT'S GENOCIDE OR NOT.
THIS IS WHAT WE ARE FACED WITH.
>> SO, OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE THE 1,200 PEOPLE SLAUGHTERED IN ISRAEL.
MORE THAN 200 PEOPLE HELD HOSTAGE.
NOW SOME 100, PERHAPS MORE, ARE TRYING -- FAMILIES ARE TRYING TO GET THEIR LOVED ONES BACK.
I'M PUTTING THIS DOWN HERE BECAUSE I WANT TO ASK YOU AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS HAD MANY, MANY HOURS, DAYS, MONTHS, YEARS OF NEGOTIATIONS AND FACE-TO-FACE WITH ISRAELIS -- YOU WERE THE FIRST JORDANIAN AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL AFTER YOUR COUNTRY SIGNED A PEACE TREATY IN '94.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE CURRENT POLITICAL LANDSCAPE IN ISRAEL AND THE PEOPLE HAVE ANY, YOU KNOW, SORT OF WILLINGNESS TO ACCEPT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS SAYING?
IN OTHER WORDS, THE DAY AFTER, THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND WHAT YOUR KING IS SAYING, TOO?
>> FIRST, I WANT TO SAY THAT THE KILLING OF CIVILIANS SHOULD NOT BE CONDONED BY ANYONE.
WHETHER THEY ARE ISRAELIS OR PALESTINIANS.
YES, THE ISRAELI PUBLIC OPINION TODAY IS VERY MUCH AGAINST A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
FRANKLY, THE PALESTINIANS PUBLIC OPINION IS ALSO AGAINST A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
BOTH SIDES DON'T SEE OR DON'T BELIEVE THERE'S A PARTNER ON THE OTHER SIDE.
WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY THOUGH IS THAT WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN OR ANYBODY IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY STARTS TALKING AGAIN ABOUT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, THEY BETTER ACCOMPANY IT WITH A CREDIBLE PLAN TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.
OTHERWISE, IT'S JUST AN EMPTY SLOGAN THAT MEANS NOTHING WHILE ISRAEL BUILDS MORE SETTLEMENTS AND KILLS THAT TWO-STATE SOLUTION THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS TALKING ABOUT.
I'M AFRAID THAT THE MORE REALISTIC SCENARIO IS NO PEACE PROCESS AFTER THE WAR ON GAZA.
AND WE ARE GOING TO BE LEFT IN A SITUATION WHERE THE PALESTINIANS ARE A MAJORITY AND INCREASING MAJORITY AND IS UNDER ISRAEL'S CONTROL WHERE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION DOES NOT MATERIALIZE AND WHERE THE PALESTINIANS ARE GOING TO START ASKING FOR EQUAL RIGHTS.
THE WHOLE NATURE OF THE CONFLICT IS GOING TO CHANGE FROM ONE THAT FOCUSES ON THE RESOLUTION TO ONE THAT FOCUSES ON RIGHTS.
OTHERWISE, WE ARE FACED WITH A SYSTEM THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WILL NOT ACCEPT INDEFINITELY.
>> YOU ADDRESSED THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT THE END OF LAST YEAR.
YOU HAVE WRITTEN AN ARTICLE ABOUT THE DAY AFTER.
I KNOW THAT YOU ARE LAYING SOME OF IT OUT RIGHT NOW.
BEFORE I GET TO MORE DETAIL, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE TWO DEVELOPMENTS.
ONE IS PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SIGNED A MEMORANDUM LINKING ANY FURTHER AMERICAN AID, MILITARY AID, TO ANY COUNTRIES.
HE IS NOT JUST SAYING ISRAEL.
IT WOULD INCLUDE ISRAEL.
TO ADHERENCE TO THE RULES OF THE INTERNATIONAL GAME.
THAT MEANS THAT APPARENTLY ACCORDING TO "THE TIMES" OF ISRAEL, ANY COUNTRY HAS 45 DAYS NOW TO SIGN AND WRITE PLEDGES TO THAT.
IT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE IN THE UNITED STATES.
DO YOU THINK THAT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
>> I'M NOT SURE.
IN FACT, WE HAVE THE -- IN THE SENATE THEY DID HAVE A LAW THAT PROHIBITS PEOPLE IMPORTING U.S. MILITARY EQUIPMENT FROM ABUSING OR USING IT TO ABUSE HUMAN RIGHTS.
ISRAEL HAS NOT ABIDED BY THAT.
I DO NOT SEE THAT ISRAEL IS GOING TO ABIDE BY THAT TODAY.
I HOPE THEY DO.
BUT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS HIMSELF SAID THAT WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING IN GAZA IS OVER THE TOP.
WELL, IT IS GOING TO STILL BE OVER THE TOP IF THE UNITED STATES KEEPS SENDING ARMS TO ISRAEL IN WHAT HAS BECOME CLEARLY MASS KILLING.
ISRAEL HAS SAID THAT IT IS DEFENDING ITSELF.
BUT THERE IS NO INTERNATIONAL LAW THAT DEFENDS COLLECTIVE KILLING OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS.
NONE.
I DON'T THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE ANY BASIC -- THERE'S NO BASIC HUMANITY IN ALLOWING THE KILLINGS OF PEOPLE IN SUCH A MANNER.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY TODAY OF MILLIONS MORE REFUGEES, PALESTINIAN REFUGEES THAN WAS THE CASE BEFORE.
THERE MUST BE ANOTHER SOLUTION.
>> I KNOW THAT YOU SPEAK TO IT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.
CLEARLY, CLEARLY, THE WORLD HAS BECOME ENRAGED BY THE MASS DEATH TOLL IN GAZA.
ACCORDING TO THE AUTHORITIES AROUND 28,000 INCLUDING THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN.
BUT I ALSO WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.
YOU HAVE KNOWN HAMAS LEADERS.
I ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE MET SOME OF THEM OR YOU KNOW OF THEM OR YOU HAVE BEEN NEGOTIATING AROUND THEM.
WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM AT THIS POINT RIGHT NOW?
THE PLACE IS LEVELLED, JUST ABOUT.
ISRAEL SAYS IT TRIES TO TAKE CARE WITH CIVILIANS.
BUT THERE'S ALMOST, ACCORDING TO AID ORGANIZATIONS AND OTHERS, NO GAZA LEFT IN TERMS OF A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF BUILDINGS.
WHO KNOWS WHAT THE LEADERS ARE ACTUALLY -- WHAT DO THEY WANT?
WHO DO THEY THINK THEY'RE GOING TO GET OUT OF THIS?
DO YOU KNOW?
WHAT ARE THEY DOING RIGHT NOW?
>> THERE ARE EXTREMIST LEADERS ON BOTH FRONTS.
WE HAVE SEEN AND TALKED ABOUT THE HAMAS LEADERS THAT HAVE HARDLINE POSITIONS ON THE PEACE PROCESS.
WE HAVE NOT TALKED ENOUGH ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE MEMBERS OF THE ISRAELI CABINET OPENLY AND PUBLICALLY CALLING FOR THE EXPULSION OF ALL PALESTINIANS FROM THEIR LAND.
THAT, TO ME, IS AN EQUAL RADICAL, IF NOT MORE RADICAL POSITION THAN THE POSITION OF HAMAS.
WHAT WE NEED IS TO OFFER PALESTINIANS A POLITICAL HORIZON SO THAT THEY, YOU KNOW, HAVE HOPE THAT THEY CAN LIVE IN PEACE AND SECURITY.
IN THE END, HAMAS, WHICH IS DEEMED A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, BUT BY MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, LET'S REMEMBER THAT THE IRA IN IRELAND WAS DEEMED A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION BY MEMBERS OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.
IN THE END, WHEN THERE'S A POLITICAL PROCESS, THESE FORCES BECOME POLITICAL FORCES RATHER THAN MILITARY ONES.
THIS IS THE NATURAL EVOLUTION OF THINGS.
BUT WITHOUT A POLITICAL HORIZON, WE ARE NOT GOING TO ACHIEVE IT.
>> LET'S SAY THERE'S A POLITICAL HORIZON ALONG THE LINES OF WHAT YOU LAID OUT AND WHAT BASICALLY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS LAYING OUT, IF IT'S POSSIBLE, TO HAVE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
YOU HAVE SAID -- YOU ARE CORRECT IN WHAT YOU HAVE SAID.
WE HAVE BEEN REPORTING IT -- THAT THOSE FAR RIGHT NATIONALISTS IN THE GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL HAVE MADE THOSE STATEMENTS.
THEY HAVE SAID THAT ABOUT EXCLUDING PALESTINIANS, ET CETERA.
HAMAS HAS SAID THE SAME THING.
I GUESS I'M TRYING TO GET AT ABOUT ISRAELIS.
SO WHERE DOES IT -- WHERE IS THERE ANY HOPE IF PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR THE DAY AFTER FOR SOME KIND OF SOLUTION THAT IS ONE THAT IS JUST, FAIR AND SECURE FOR EVERYBODY?
>> IF THERE'S A CREDIBLE POLITICAL HORIZON LED BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, YOU CAN CHANGE PEOPLE'S MINDSETS IN BOTH CAMPS.
BUT TODAY, A MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS AND A MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS DO NOT WANT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THERE'S A PARTNER ON THE OTHER SIDE.
IF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY DOES NOT CREDIBLY LAUNCH A POLITICAL PROCESS THAT ENDS THE OCCUPATION AND ESTABLISHING STATES, THEN I'M AFRAID THE ALTERNATIVE IS MORE VIOLENCE ON BOTH SIDES FOR A SUSTAINED PERIOD OF TIME.
THIS IS WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT.
PEACEMAKING MIGHT BE DIFFICULT, MIGHT BE VERY DIFFICULT.
BUT STICKING TO THE STATUS QUO IS GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW, EVEN MORE DIFFICULT.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.
>>> NEXT, HOW ART CAN SUSTAIN LIFE AND HOPE EVEN IN THE MOST DESPERATE CIRCUMSTANCES, EVEN IN THE MOST WAR-TORN NATIONS.
THE SIEGE OF SARAJEVO DURING THE WAR OF THE '90s WAS THE LONGEST IN MODERN WARFARE, LASTING FOUR YEARS BEFORE COMING TO AN END 28 YEARS AGO THIS MONTH.
DESPITE THE SHELLING AND SNIPERS, THERE WAS AN UNDERGROUND MUSIC SCENE.
FOR MANY, THEIR ONLY ESCAPE FROM THE HORRORS OF THAT WAR.
THE SUPERSTAR ROCK BAND U2 SENT MESSAGES OF SUPPORT TO THE PEOPLE OF SARAJEVO AND VOWED TO PERFORM THERE ONCE THE WAR WAS OVER.
THAT IS THE EXTRAORDINARY STORY AT THE HEART OF A NEW DOCUMENTARY "KISS THE FUTURE."
HERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF THE TRAILER.
>> THE HEART OF CULTURE.
A BRIGHT, SHINING LIGHT.
THEY NEEDED TO KILL THAT LIGHT.
>> DURING THE WAR, WE WOULD PLAY MUSIC.
THAT'S WHAT KEPT US SANE.
>> ART CAN INSPIRE PEOPLE TO WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
YOU DO WHAT YOU LOVE THE MOST.
>> COURAGE IS GRACE UNDER PRESSURE.
>> THAT'S A GOOD DEFINITION OF THE PEOPLE OF SARAJEVO.
>> KISS THE FUTURE.
>> FOR ANYBODY WHO CAUGHT IT, IT WAS MY VOICE IN THE TRAILER.
I WAS INTERVIEWED BY THE FILM ABOUT MY REPORTING DURING THAT TIME.
JOINING ME NOW IS ONE OF THE FILM'S PRODUCERS WHO HAPPENS TO BE THE OSCAR WINNING SCREENWRITER AND FILM STAR MATT DAMON.
WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> WHAT DREW YOU TO THIS PROJECT?
HOW DID YOU EVEN COME TO KNOW ABOUT IT?
>> ACTUALLY, THE STORY WAS TOLD TO ME.
I THOUGHT IT WAS SO INCREDIBLE.
THAT COINCIDED WITH KNOWING A CERTAIN DIRECTOR WHO WOUND UP DIRECTING THIS FILM.
TO LISTEN TO HIM TALK ABOUT IT AND HIS PASSION, HE IS FROM THERE, HE HAS A VERY PERSONAL CONNECTION TO THIS WHOLE STORY.
WE KNEW WE HAD THE RIGHT STORYTELLER AND THE RIGHT PEOPLE IN PLACE.
SO THEN WE WENT TO THE BAND.
THEY HAD ALL THIS FOOTAGE FROM THAT TIME THAT THEY JUST GAVE US.
YOU KNOW, REALLY, THEIR ONE CONCERN WAS THEY DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE A FILM ABOUT THEM.
IF WE WERE GOING TO DO IT, TO MAKE IT ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF SARAJEVO.
IT'S JUST THE MOST UPLIFTING STORY.
IT'S REALLY ABOUT LIGHT WINNING OVER DARKNESS.
THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING.
OBVIOUSLY, HUGE TO HAVE YOU THERE.
YOU ARE ABLE TO PUT THIS STORY IN CONTEXT FOR VIEWERS TODAY WHO MAY NOT BE AS FAMILIAR WITH WHAT HAPPENED BACK IN SARAJEVO.
>> I DID MEET BONO BEFORE HE WENT BACK TO PERFORM.
HE DID THAT AFTER THE WAR.
IT WAS THE POST WAR.
45,000 FANS TURNED OUT TO SEE HIM.
UNTHINKABLE DURING THE WAR.
IT WAS QUITE SOMETHING FOR THOSE WHO WERE ABLE TO SEE IT.
I WANT TO PULL OUT A LITTLE BIT -- A CLIP.
IT IS TALKING ABOUT -- BONO IS TALKING WITH ONE OF THE LOCAL MUSICIANS WHO FEATURES IN THE DOCUMENTARY.
>> U2 DURING THE WAR, THEY HAD SOMETHING TO SAY.
THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US.
>> ALL OF US USED MUSIC TO PROTECT OURSELVES.
A KIND OF SHIELD AGAINST ALL THE DARK FORCES INSIDESARAJEVO, THERE WAS WAR.
THEY WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.
THEY WERE USING MUSIC AS A SHIELD AGAINST ACTUAL DARK FORCES.
>> IT WAS AMAZING WHEN I SAW THE WHOLE DOCUMENTARY.
EVEN THOUGH WE WERE THERE AS REPORTERS, WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY KNOW THAT THERE WAS THIS UNDERGROUND LOCAL MUSIC SCENE THRIVING, EVEN UNDER CURFEW AND ALL THE REST OF IT.
IT WAS REALLY AMAZING TO SEE IT.
DIRECTORS CAME.
HAIR, SUSAN SONTAG CAME AND PUT ON A PLAY.
WHAT DO YOU THINK AS AN ARTIST ACTUALLY ABOUT THE POWER OF ART IN THE WORST KINDS OF SITUATIONS?
>> YEAH.
THAT TO ME IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL PART OF THE MOVIE.
IT'S REALLY ABOUT OUR HUMANITY.
IN THE DARKEST TIMES, THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT EXPRESSING OURSELVES AND DOING IT TOGETHER.
THESE PEOPLE WERE GOING TO THESE UNDERGROUND MUSIC CLUBS AT NIGHT TO EITHER LISTEN TO MUSIC OR TO PLAY MUSIC.
WE HAVE -- THERE'S A PHOTOGRAPH IN THE FILM THAT WE HAVE OF ONE OF THESE PUNK ROCK DRUMMERS GOT HIS HAND BLOWN OFF ON THE FRONT.
THERE'S A PICTURE OF HIM WITH A DRUMSTICK TAPED TO WHERE HIS HAND USED TO BE.
MUSIC IS AN ACT OF RESISTANCE AND DEFIANCE.
ART IS AN ACT OF DEFIANCE.
YOU CAN PUT US IN THE MOST HORRIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE AWAY OUR CELEBRATION OF OUR HUMANITY.
WE ARE WILLING TO DIE FOR THAT.
THAT JUST -- IT'S A VERY BEAUTIFUL MESSAGE.
SOMETHING TO PUT OUT INTO THE WORLD TODAY.
THAT WAS WHY WE WANTED TO JUST HELP SEE IT GET MADE.
I THOUGHT IT WAS SUCH A BEAUTIFUL STORY.
>> IT IS.
THE MUSICIAN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, HIS NAME IS SURGEON.
IT IS REMARKABLE TO SEE THAT LEVEL OF RESISTANCE.
>> THE AUDIENCE WAS LITERALLY RISKING THEIR LIFE RUNNING FROM THE DIFFERENT BRIDGES TO THE THEATER.
OUR SOUND GUY DIED BEFORE ONE OF THE PERFORMANCES.
>> ONE DAY, MY BASS PLAYER SAID OUR DRUMMER LOST HIS HAND ON THE FRONT LINE.
HE LOST HIS RIGHT [ BLEEP ] HAND.
>> IT WAS A DRUMMER.
I MEAN, JUST TO WATCH THAT.
I REMEMBER THOSE SCENES OF PEOPLE RUNNING FROM BRIDGE TO BRIDGE, FROM ROAD TO ROAD, FROM SHELTER TO SHELTER TRYING NOT TO GET SNIPED OR KILLED.
EMOTIONALLY FOR YOU, HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL WHEN YOU SEE THAT?
YOU CAN SEE THE SAME STUFF HAPPENING IN UKRAINE RIGHT NOW.
THERE'S A THRIVING UNDERGROUND ART COMMUNITY.
>> YEAH.
I THINK THAT'S BUILT OUT OF NECESSITY.
WE HAVE TO HAVE THESE THINGS.
WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO BE HUMAN BEINGS AND BE TOGETHER AND EXPERIENCE THE BEST PARTS OF LIFE TOGETHER.
OR ELSE IT'S JUST -- WE'RE ON THE ROAD TO MADNESS.
OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE FORCES THAT ARE -- TODAY WITH SOCIAL MEDIA, OBVIOUSLY, IT'S EASIER TO PROMOTE IT.
IT'S A CELEBRATION OF WHAT THESE PEOPLE DID IN THE DARKEST -- IN THEIR DARKEST HOUR.
THAT PART OF IT IS JUST INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL.
IT STANDS TO REASON THAT YOU WOULD SEE THAT IN UKRAINE, YOU WOULD SEE THAT IN THESE PLACES THAT ARE DEALING WITH THESE TYPES OF HORRORS THAT THEY IMMEDIATE TO HOLD ON TO THEIR HUMANITY AND COMMUNITY.
>> DOES IT STRIKE YOU -- BONO IS FAMOUSLY POLITICAL IN AID OF HUMANITY, ESSENTIALLY.
HE IS A POLITICAL GUY.
HE MAKES MANY MESSAGES IN MANY OF HIS GLOBAL PERFORMANCES.
OF COURSE, FROM THE VIETNAM WAR FOR DECADES MANY AMERICANS WERE OVERTLY POLITICAL AND OTHERS.
DO YOU THINK THAT'S STILL HAPPEN HAPPENING?
DO YOU SEE ACTING AND ACTORS NOT BEING AS POLITICAL IN DEFENSE OF HUMANITY?
>> I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T KNOW IF I COULD MAKE A GRAND STATEMENT ABOUT THE STATE OF THINGS.
IT CERTAINLY FELT LIKE I WAS RAISED DURING A TIME WHERE THE CITIZENRY WAS A LOT MORE ENGAGED.
I GREW UP DURING THE VIETNAM WAR.
THAT WAS A VERY FRACTIOUS TIME IN AMERICA AND DEEPLY FELT ON ALL SIDES.
THE COUNTRY WAS IN TURMOIL.
I DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE BEEN ANESTHETIZED SINCE THEN.
WITH ALL OF THE CHANGES IN TECHNOLOGY AND THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE, WE ARE OVERRIDDEN WITH SOME OF THE INPUT AND WE CAN'T KEEP UP WITH EVERYTHING.
I'M NOT SURE.
I DO FEEL LIKE CERTAINLY A BAND LIKE U2, THEY HAVE ALWAYS -- THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN -- I REMEMBER TALKING TO EDGE ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE ALMOST DIDN'T JOIN THE BAND BECAUSE HE WASN'T SURE IF IT WAS ENOUGH TO DO WITH HIS LIFE.
HE WANTED HIS LIFE TO HAVE GREATER MEANING IN SERVICE OF OTHERS.
SO CERTAINLY THAT -- IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH TO HAVE THE INCREDIBLE MUSIC, BUT THEY HAVE ALWAYS TRIED TO DO MORE.
I THINK THAT JUST SPEAKS TO THE KIND OF PEOPLE THEY ARE.
>> THIS DOCUMENTARY ENDS WITH A MONTAGE OF NEWS REPORTS FROM ALL OVER.
YOU HAVE SAID THE POWERFUL MESSAGE OF PEACE IS AS RELEVANT AND AS IMPORTANT TODAY AS IT WAS IN SEPTEMBER 1997 WHEN BILL CARTER -- THE AMERICAN AIDE WORKER WHO BROUGHT THIS STORY TO BONO AND THE SARAJEVO COMMUNITY BROUGHT U2 TO POST-WAR SARAJEVO.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING -- THIS INTERVIEW IS PART OF IT -- TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE WATCH THESE DOCUMENTS?
YOU ARE A PRODUCER AS WELL.
YOU HAVE DONE ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE SELLING POWER OF THIS ONE?
HOW IMPORTANT IS IT THAT IT DOES SELL?
>> GREAT QUESTION.
LOOK, YOU NEVER KNOW AS A PRODUCER AND ACTOR OR WRITER WHEN YOU PUT SOMETHING OUT.
IT'S TOUGH TO HANDICAP WHETHER PEOPLE WILL GO OR NOT.
THIS JUST WAS A HUGE EFFORT BY A LOT OF PEOPLE.
IT'S GOING TO GO INTO AMC THEATERS FEBRUARY 23rd ALL ACROSS AMERICA.
I SPOKE TO THE HEAD OF AMC THEATERS WHO JUST WATCHED THE MOVIE AND JUST LOVED IT.
HE IS LIKE, I'M PUTTING IT IN.
A LOT OF TIMES YOU GET THESE -- IT'S BEEN SOLD TO PARAMOUNT+.
IT SPEAKS TO A BIGGER GROUP EFFORT WHEN PEOPLE SEE SOMETHING THEY FEEL IS WORTHY OF YOUR ATTENTION.
I DON'T KNOW -- I'M NOT REALLY -- I HAVEN'T MADE A LOT OF DOCUMENTARIES IN MY LIFE.
THIS ISN'T MY CORE BUSINESS.
THIS IS JUST A STORY I THOUGHT WAS SO WONDERFUL I WANTED TO HELP GET IT TOLD.
>> I'M GOING TO GET TO SOME OF YOUR FILMS IN A MOMENT.
I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING WE FIRST TALKED ABOUT WHETHER WE FIRST MET.
THAT'S YOUR CHARITY WORK.
IN PARTICULAR, THE WATER CHARITY, WHICH IS ALWAYS SO IMPORTANT.
I WONDER HOW IT'S GOING.
ARE YOU STILL DOING IT?
WHAT ARE THE MAIN NATIONS?
YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA.
YOU JUST HEARD SOME OF WHAT OUR FIRST GUEST WAS TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF THE HUMANITARIAN NEEDS.
CRISIS, THE FOOD CRISIS.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
ARE YOU OPERATING IN GAZA?
WOULD YOU?
>> WE TEND TO -- WE ARE ALL OVER THE WORLD.
WE DON'T USUALLY -- OUR EXPERTISE ARE NOT IN AREAS DEALING WITH A HOT CONFLICT.
THAT'S NOT -- WHAT WE TRY TO DO IS THROUGH A SYSTEM OF MICROLOANING, WE HAVE EMPOWERED OVER 60 MILLION PEOPLE TO GET ACCESS TO SAFE WATER AND SANITATION.
I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN GREAT FOR US THE ENTIRE TIME AT WATER.ORG.
YOU WERE THERE WHEN WE CELEBRATED OUR FIRST MILLION IN 2012.
OUR WORK HAS BEEN ABLE TO SCALE.
IN THE LAST 13 YEARS, WE ARE NOW OVER 60 MILLION PEOPLE.
WE ARE VERY PROUD OF THAT.
OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE 771 MILLION PEOPLE ON THE PLANET WHO LACK ACCESS.
THERE'S A LONG WAY TO GO.
WE ARE -- WE DO FEEL LIKE THIS BOOST OF ENERGY AND MOMENTUM AND THINGS ARE GOING AS WELL AS WE COULD HAVE HOPED.
WE HAVE TO KEEP OUR FOOT ON THE GAS.
>> IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO ENGAGE, BECAUSE I REPORTED ON THOSE PLACES WHICH HAVE SUCH A LACK OF BASIC NECESSITIES.
ALSO, WATER.ORG, AREN'T YOU -- CLIMATE RESISTANCE AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO OFFSET THE CRISIS THERE?
>> YES.
WE ARE NOW MOVING INTO CLIMATE RESILIENT INFRASTRUCTURE SO YOU CAN -- A LOT OF THE TIMES IF YOU TALK TO PEOPLE AT THE WORLD BANK, THEY WILL SAY, WE CAN REACH THE TOP 85%.
IT'S THE BOTTOM 15% WE STRUGGLE WITH.
THAT'S REALLY WHERE WE COME IN.
WE ARE LOOKING NOW AT THIS BOTTOM UP AND A BIT OF THE TOP DOWN APPROACH WHERE SOME OF THESE UTILITIES CAN MOVE INTO PLACES AND REACH MOVE PEOPLE.
BUT THEY NEED TO DO IT WITH CLIMATE RESILIENT INFRASTRUCTURE.
IF YOU THINK -- SOME OF THESE PLACES, 35% OF THE WATER IS LEAKING OUT INTO THE GROUND.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE CARBON COST OF MOVING -- WATER IS SUCH A HEAVY COMMODITY.
TO MOVE IT, TO TREAT IT AND TO PIPE IT TO ONLY THEN LOSE IT JUST DRIPPING OUT OF YOUR PIPE INTO THE GROUND IS AN UNBELIEVABLE WASTE OF ENERGY.
YES, WE ARE LOOKING AT IT FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT ANGLES.
IT'S A VASTLY COMPLEX AND INTERESTING ISSUE.
IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF COLLABORATION IN ORDER TO GET WHERE WE ARE -- TO OUR MISSION STATEMENT, WHICH IS A WORLD IN WHICH EVERYBODY HAS ACCESS IN OUR LIFETIME.
>> YOU DO HAVE A DAY JOB.
YOU ARE A PRETTY FAMOUS AND ACTIVE MOVIE STAR.
"OPPENHEIMER" BROUGHT EVERYBODY BACK TO THE CINEMA.
BLOWN OUT THE BOX OFFICE.
DONE UNBELIEVABLY WELL.
APPARENTLY, YOU WERE LOOKING TO TAKE SOME KIND OF TIME OUT TO BE MORE WITH YOUR FAMILY.
I HEARD, I READ THAT YOU TOLD YOUR WIFE YOU WERE GOING TO TAKE A GOOD TIME-OUT UNLESS CHRISTOPHER NOLAN CALLED YOU.
THEN HE DID.
THEN COMES YOUR ROLE IN -- >> I WAS SMART ENOUGH -- I HAD ONE CARVEOUT IN OUR DEAL.
ONE CAVEAT.
MOST ACTORS HAVE A SENSE OF HIS TIME LINE.
EVERY THREE OR SO YEARS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT GET A CALL.
SO I JUST LEFT MYSELF THAT ONE OUT.
IF YOU GET A CALL FROM HIM, YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO PICK IT UP AND GO.
>> YOU PLAY LESLIE GROVES, THE GENERAL THAT OVERSAW THE PROJECT THAT OPPENHEIMER DID.
WHAT WAS IT?
WAS IT THE STORY OR AS YOU SAY IS IT CHRISTOPHER NOLAN THAT DREW YOU TO IT?
>> WELL, I THINK ANYBODY WOULD JUST DO THE PHONE BOOK WITH CHRIS NOLAN IF HE CALLED AND ASKED.
THE SCRIPT WAS REALLY SPECTACULAR.
I APPRECIATED IT MORE AFTER I READ THE BOOK THAT IT'S BASED ON.
IT WON THE PULITZER PRIZE.
THAT ADAPTATION WAS SO INCREDIBLE.
ONE OF THOSE ONCE IN A CAREER TYPE OF JOBS THAT COME ACROSS YOUR DESK.
THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN'T DO IT.
I'M REALLY -- I LIKEN THAT MOVIE TO A GREAT RECORD THAT -- I GET TO SAY, I PLAYED ON THAT RECORD.
I'M IN THERE SOMEWHERE.
I'M REALLY -- I'M LUCKY.
>> IT WAS A WONDER FILM.
MY FINAL QUESTION IS GOING TO START WITH A CLIP FROM A DUNKIN' DONUT AD.
>> THE DUNK KINGS.
TOUCHDOWN TOMMY ON THE KEYS.
>> GOT IT.
>> I'M OPEN.
>> SOMETIMES IT'S REALLY HARD TO BE YOUR FRIEND.
>> YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO SUPPORT ME.
>> HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM DOUGHNUTS?
I'M SORRY.
>> I FORGET YOU.
LAY US ON THE TRACK.
>> SUPER BOWL FUN.
THERE'S SO MANY LAYERS THERE.
YOUR CLOSE FRIENDSHIP WITH BEN AFFLECK.
THERE WAS JENNIFER LOPEZ.
SO MANY LAYERS THERE.
YOU WORK TOGETHER ON FILMS, ON SO MANY OTHER ISSUES.
YOU REMAIN SUCH GOOD FRIENDS.
DO YOU EVER FALL OUT?
>> NO, NO.
WE HAVE BEEN FRIENDS SINCE -- I DON'T KNOW, I WAS 10 AND HE WAS 8.
THAT'S 43 YEARS.
IT'S BEYOND THAT.
WE ACCEPTED -- IT'S A BROTHERHOOD AT THAT POINT.
THERE CAN'T REALLY BE A BREAKUP.
HE CALLED ME -- I THOUGHT THE IDEA WAS REALLY FUNNY.
HE IS CLEARLY MAKING A BIGGER FOOL OF HIMSELF THAN ANYBODY IN THE COMMERCIAL.
EVERYBODY FELT FINE ABOUT PUTTING THE TRACK SUITS ON.
WE HAD A LOT OF FUN.
>> I SAW YOU SMILING A LOT WHILE YOU WERE WATCHING THAT.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
"KISS THE FUTURE" IS REALLY IMPORTANT.
DESPITE THE WAR AND THE SETTING, IT'S A REALLY UPLIFTING DOCUMENTARY THAT DOES TELL THAT STORY OF HOW HUMANITY CAN ACTUALLY SURVIVE AND CAN THRIVE EVEN IN WAR WHEN THEY HAVE A SENSE OF RESISTANCE.
MATT DAMON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
THE FILM "KISS THE FUTURE" WILL BE IN SELECTED U.S.
THEATERS.
>>> TO THE SUBURBS WHERE WHITE AMERICANS GREW UP.
ONCE IT WAS THE QUINTESSENTIAL IMAGE OF AMERICAN LIFE.
THESE NEIGHBORHOODS NOW REVEAL SYSTEMICDISPARITY.
WITH NEW BLACK AND BROWN RESIDENTS STRUGGLING TO DEAL WITH THE DECLINING CONDITIONS LEFT BY WHITE OCCUPANTS WHO MOVED ON AND UP.
IN HIS NEW BOOK, BENJAMIN HAROLD LOOKS AT FIVE SUBURBS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
HE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT FAMILIES ARE EXPERIENCING IN THESE COMMUNITIES.
>> THANKS.
THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> YOU ARE AN EDUCATION REPORTER.
WHAT MADE YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE SUBURBS?
WHAT MADE YOU THINK OF IT?
>> WE HAVE, AS AMERICANS, HAVE INVESTED SO MANY OF OUR HOPES, OUR DREAMS, OUR VISIONS OF THE FUTURE IN SUBURBIA.
A LOT OF THAT REVOLVES AROUND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
THIS IDEA OF THE PLACE WHERE WE FEEL LIKE WE CAN GO NOT ONLY FOR THE GOOD LIFE FOR OURSELVES BUT TO GIVE OUR CHILDREN A BETTER FUTURE.
THAT'S A REALLY POWERFUL THING.
THAT IS CENTERED AROUND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
THAT WAS THE OPENING WINDOW INTO GOING INTO THE FIVE COMMUNITIES THAT I FOCUS ON IN THE BOOK.
>> WHAT WAS THE QUESTION YOU WERE TRYING TO ANSWER?
>> IT COMES BACK TO MY ORIGIN STORY.
I HAD GROWN UP IN A SUBURB EAST OF PITTSBURGH CALLED PENN HILLS.
IT WAS A PLACE THAT WORKED VERY WELL FOR MY MIDDLE CLASS WHITE FAMILY.
LARGELY IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
I GOT A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES.
IT'S NOT HARD TO TRACE MY CAREER AS A JOURNALIST BACK TO MY EXPERIENCE IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN PENN HILLS.
WHEN I WAS IN THIRD GRADE, I WAS THE KID WOULD USED TO GET BORED AND I WOULD DRAW ON MY DESK.
MY TEACHER INSTEAD OF PUNISHING ME, SHE BROUGHT IN HER TYPEWRITER FROM HOME AND SAID, BEN, WHEN YOU GET BORED, WORK ON THIS.
I STARTED A CLASS NEWSPAPER.
THAT WAS MY FIRST JOURNALISM JOB.
YOU CAN SEE HOW THINGS PROGRESSED FROM THERE.
WHEN I LEFT IN 1994, I REALLY DIDN'T LOOK BACK.
I THOUGHT THE REAL WORLD WAS HAPPENING SOMEWHERE ELSE.
I SPENT MUCH OF MY CAREER AS AN EDUCATION JOURNALIST COVERING BIG CITIES.
IN 2015 AND 2016, ALL OF THE HEADLINES STARTED COMING OUT OF PENN HILLS.
THIS COMMUNITY AND SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT WORKED SO WELL FOR MY WHITE FAMILY HAD RUN UP $172 MILLION IN DEBT.
THEY WERE LAYING OFF TEACHERS.
THEY WERE SLASHING PROGRAMS AND SERVICES.
PROPERTY TAXES WERE GOING UP.
HOME VALUES WERE STAGNATING.
YOU CAN SEE HOW THIS DREAM WAS ERODING ALMOST IN REAL TIME.
IT WAS OVERLAID WITH THIS DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFT.
THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS WERE 72% WHITE WHEN I GRADUATED.
BY THE TIME THIS BAD NEWS STARTED HAPPENING, IT WAS 63% BLACK.
IT MADE ME REALIZE, WAIT, ALL OF THESE OPPORTUNITIES AND BENEFITS THAT MY FAMILY AND ME PERSONALLY RECEIVED A GENERATION AGO WERE BEING PAID FOR BY THE FAMILIES WHO LIVE THERE NOW.
I WAS CURIOUS IF THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS HAPPENING JUST IN MY HOMETOWN OR IF IT WAS HAPPENING ELSEWHERE.
WHAT I LEARNED IS THIS IS A CYCLE COMMON IN SUBURBAN AREAS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.
>> ONE OF THE PEOPLE YOU QUOTE IN THE BOOK AND PEOPLE WRITING ABOUT THE BOOK HAVE BASICALLY LIKENED THIS TO A PONZI SCHEME.
IT'S A SHELL GAME.
SOMEBODY HAS TO BE THE SUCKER.
SOMEBODY IS GOING TO GET TAKEN.
TELL ME WHY YOU SAY THAT.
THEN WE WILL DIG INTO IT FURTHER.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
I THINK TWO THINGS TO REMEMBER ABOUT THE WAY THAT AMERICA BECAME A SUBBAN NATION.
MANY OF THE COMMUNITIES, LIKE MY HOMETOWN, GREW UP ALMOST OVERNIGHT.
YOU HAD FORMER FARMLAND CONVERTED INTO RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS.
YOU SAW THIS INFRASTRUCTURE, ROADS, STREETS, SEWERS, PUBLIC SCHOOLS BEING BUILT ALMOST OVERNIGHT.
A LOT OF IT HEAVILY SUBSIDIZED BY STATE, LOCAL AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
WHAT THAT RESULTED IN -- MANY OF THE COMMUNITIES WERE RACIALLY RESTRICTIVE.
THERE WAS THIS GENEROUS SOCIAL CONTRACT.
WE GET CHEAP MORTGAGE LOANS, MASSIVE TAX BREAKS, NEW INFRASTRUCTURE, PUBLIC SCHOOLS WE CAN MAKE IN OUR OWN IMAGE.
ALL OF THESE BENEFITS THAT COME AND ARE MADE POSSIBLE BOTH BECAUSE OF THE SUBSIDIES ON THE FRONT END AND BECAUSE WE PUSH THE TRUE COSTS OF RENEWING AND REPAIRING AND MAINTAINING THOSE OFF INTO THE FUTURE.
THAT'S WHERE THE PONZI SCHEME ASPECT COMES IN.
I'M GOING TO GET MONEY FROM SOMEONE ELSE WHO WILL GET STUCK HOLDING THE BAG LATER.
IN PENN HILLS, THIS TOWN OUTSIDE OF PITTSBURGH, IF YOU LOOK NOW, THE FAMILIES WHO ARE LIVING IN THAT COMMUNITY NOW AND USING THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM NOW, INCLUDING BETHANY SMITH, A MOTHER WHO BOUGHT THE HOUSE THREE DOORS DOWN, ARE NOT ONLY GETTING THAT SAME BENEFIT -- GENEROUS SOCIAL CONTRACT MY FAMILY RECEIVED, BUT ARE ON THE HOOK FOR PAYING FOR THOSE OPPORTUNITIES WE ALREADY EXTRACTED.
THAT SHOWS UP IN SEWAGE BILLS, PROPERTY TAX RATES, HIGHER COST OF LIVING FOR LOWER SERVICES AND BENEFITS.
>> I WANT TO MENTION THAT THE NAMES OF PEOPLE YOU WROTE ABOUT ARE ACTUALLY PSEUDONYMS, EXCEPT FOR BETHANY SMITH.
WHERE DID THE IDEA OF THE SUBURBS COME FROM TO BEGIN WITH?
JUST THE IDEA OF THE SUBURBS IN AMERICA, WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?
HOW DID IT BECOME SOMETHING TO SORT OF ASPIRE TO?
>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
I THINK PART OF WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER WHEN WE LOOK AT THE CHALLENGING THAT SUBURBIA IS FACING NOW, HOW THEY GOT BUILT.
NOT JUST THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE POLICY BEHIND IT, BUT THE VISION AND THE DREAM.
THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THIS METHODOLOGY THAT THE SUBURBS ARE THE PLACE WHERE WE CAN GO TO ESCAPE OUR PROPERTIES, TO ESCAPE THE PAST, TO ESCAPE OUR RACIAL SINS AS A NATION, TO ESCAPE THE PEOPLE THAT WE WANT TO LEAVE BEHIND, WE DON'T WANT TO SHARE RESOURCES WITH, WE DON'T WANT TO SHARE TAX DOLLARS WITH AND SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WITH.
IT'S RACIALIZED FROM THE BEGINNING.
THE IDEA FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS ESSENTIALLY SUBSIDIZING, SETTING THEM UP TO BE EXCLUSIVE.
>> YOU DESCRIBE THIS AS A PERNICIOUS IDEA FROM THE BEGINNING.
WAS DID SO TERRIBLE THAT PEOPLE CAME BACK FROM FIGHTING WARS OVERSEAS AND WANTED SOME SPACE?
DOES IT START OUT AS A KIND OF RACIAL ESCAPE PROJECT?
>> YES.
THE SHORT ANSWER.
>> WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS YES.
>> THE IMPULSE TO WANT A NEW HOME WITH A NICE YARD ON A QUIET STREET WITH GOOD PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND NICE AMENITIES, THAT'S A COMMON DESIRE.
WHEN IT BECOMES AVAILABLE, IT MAKE PRESIDENT SENSE.
IT'S A VERY RATIONAL DECISION WE WANT THAT LIFESTYLE.
THERE'S A REASON TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE REORGANIZE THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT THEIR WAY INTO THOSE COMMUNITIES.
THE PROBLEM FROM THE BEGINNING, AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN, AS YOU DESCRIBE THIS RACIAL ESCAPE PROJECT.
WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IS THAT WE ARE RUNNING UP AGAINST THE LIMITS OF THAT.
PART OF THIS DYNAMIC THAT I DESCRIBE IN SUBURBIA, WE THINK ABOUT WHITE FLIGHT OUT OF CITIES INTO SUBURBS.
THAT'S VERY TRUE.
WHAT WE HAVE MISSED AS A NATION IS THAT WE ARE SEEING WHITE FLIGHT OUT OF OLDER SUBURBS AS WELL.
>> YOUR ARGUMENT IS THE BILL IS COMING DUE.
WHY IS THAT?
>> IT'S TWO FACTORS.
ONE IS, WE LOSE SIGHT SOMETIMES OF HOW VAST THIS SUBURBANIZATION PROJECT WAS.
THERE WERE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF COMMUNITIES THAT WERE REALLY BUILT UP ALMOST OVERNIGHT IN THE TIME PERIOD RIGHT AFTER WORLD WAR II.
THIS WAS SOMETHING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.
IT WAS BECAUSE THERE WAS FEDERAL INVESTMENT.
PART OF WHAT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER IS THAT THOSE COMMUNITIES WERE DESIGNED FOR ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE AT ONE STAGE OF LIFE WITH ONE GENERAL SET OF DREAMS AND AMBITIONS.
IT WORKED VERY WELL FOR THEM AT FIRST.
AS THOSE COMMUNITIES AGE, ALL OF THAT INFRASTRUCTURE NEEDS REPAIR AT THE SAME TIME.
WE SEE ROADS, SEWERS, STREETS, SCHOOLS, THE SIDING ON YOUR HOUSE, THE ROOF, ALL OF THESE THINGS NEED REPAIR AT THE SAME TIME.
WHAT WE HAVE DONE AS ACENTIIZED PEOPLE TO LEAVE RATHER THAN IMPROVE AND GROW.
PART OF WHAT HAPPENS IS THESE COMMUNITIES -- EVERYTHING GETS OLD AT ONCE.
WE HAVE TO FIX THEM AT ONCE.
IT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE REALLY DESIGNED FOR YOUNG WHITE FAMILIES AND A PARTICULAR KIND OF FAMILY.
THAT IS VERY BAKED INTO THE DESIGN AND THE SOCIAL FABRIC OF THE COMMUNITIES.
AS THAT CHANGES, AS THAT EVOLVES, AS DIFFERENT FAMILIES AND STRUCTURES COME IN, THE COMMUNITIES STRUGGLE TO RESPOND.
YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE HOUSING STOCK.
YOU CAN SEE IT IN THESE DAY-TO-DAY INTERACTIONS THAT END UP PRODUCING A LOT OF DISILLUSIONMENT THAT I FOUND WHEN I TALKED TO PARENTS.
>> WHY?
BECAUSE CHANGING -- WHY WOULD CHANGING DEMOGRAPHICS NECESSARILY LEAD TO THAT?
ARE THESE PEOPLE UNDERRESOURCED COMPARE COMPARED TO THE PEOPLE THEY LEFT?
WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?
>> THE KEY POINT IS WHERE WE KIND OF LOCATE THE PROBLEM.
WHAT I DO IN THE BOOK IS LOCATE THE PROBLEM -- WE SEE IT MOST CLEARLY IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
I WILL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.
ONE OF THE FAMILIES I SPENT SEVERAL YEARS FOLLOWING WITH, THEY ARE THE ROBINSONS.
A MIDDLE CLASS PROFESSIONAL BLACK FAMILY IN THE SUBURBS OF ATLANTA.
WE HAVE ADVANCED DEGREES.
MOM IS WORKING ON A Ph.D..
THEY ARE INVESTED IN THEIR KIDS' EDUCATION.
THEY BOUGHT THE NICE HOUSE IN THE NICE NEIGHBORHOOD ATTACHED TO THE NICE SCHOOL.
FELT LIKE, OKAY, WE ARE BUYING INTO THIS DREAM.
WE ARE DOING WHAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO.
IT WORKED OUT OKAY FOR A WHILE UNTIL THEIR OLDEST SON, A BLACK BOY NAMED COREY, STARTS MIDDLE SCHOOL.
THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, HIS PHYSICALITY, HIS PERSONALITY, HIS WAY OF COMMUNICATING, HIS -- THE WAY HE INTERACTS, THAT BECOMES A PROBLEM IN A WAY THAT STARTS GETTING PUNISHED DIRECTLY.
THE PARENTS, THEY ARE INVOLVED.
WE'RE GOING TO NIP THIS IN THE BUD.
WE WILL GO TALK TO THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, SAY WE WANT TO BE PARTNERS WITH YOU.
WE'RE IN THIS TOGETHER TO HOLD OUR SON ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE WRONG, MAKE SURE HE CAN IMPROVE, CORRECT IT AND MOVE ON.
WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN THEY DECIDE TO GO TO THAT MEETING, THE MOTHER AND FATHER SAY -- THEY ARE INTENTIONAL.
THEY SAID, WE'RE GOING TO INVITE COREY'S GRANDPARENTS, HIS MINISTER, HIS COACH, HIS MENTOR AND SOME OF HIS ADULT FRIENDS.
FOR THEM, THE IDEA IS, WE'RE COMING TO SHOW YOU THAT WE ARE A GOOD FAMILY, THAT THERE'S A LOT OF SUPPORT FOR OUR CHILD AND THERE'S RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE THAT YOU CAN TAP INTO.
WHAT THE SCHOOL SYSTEM SAID IS, THOSE PEOPLE CAN'T COME INTO THE MEETING BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT YOUR FAMILY.
>> THEY ARE BASICALLY SAYING, WE ARE SCARED OF HIM.
>> YES.
>> THE BEHAVIOR THAT READS AS NORMAL MIDDLE SCHOOL KID BEHAVIOR TO HIS FAMILY AND HIS EXTENDED COMMUNITY READS TO THIS SCHOOL AS THREATENING, DANGEROUS AND TO BE CONTROLLED?
>> THAT'S SOMETHING THAT MOM STARTS SEEING IN HIS DISCIPLINE FILES,BULLY, AGGRESSIVE.
WHAT SHE STARTS TO REALIZE IS -- THEY ARE PROFESSIONAL PEOPLE.
THEY ARE IN THIS MEETING.
MOM SAYS, I SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
YOU ARE TRYING TO DOCUMENT MY CHILD TO DEATH SO YOU CAN SEND HIM OUT.
I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, BECAUSE I'M IN MANAGEMENT, TOO.
I HAVE DONE IT MYSELF.
SAY, SEE US FOR WHO WE ARE.
LIKE YOU ARE SAYING, RECOGNIZE THE GIFTS AND RESOURCES.
THERE'S THIS CONSTANT MISMATCH.
YOU SEE IT IN THE INTERACTIONS AND AT A SCHOOL BOARD LEVEL.
IN THAT COUNTY OUTSIDE OF ATLANTA, WAS 90% WHITE AS RECENTLY AS 1990.
NOW IT'S NEARLY THREE-FOURTHS MULTIRACIAL.
THE CHANGE IN LEADERSHIP OF THE SCHOOL DISTRICT CHANGED MORE SLOWLY.
WE ARE SEEING THAT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
>> I'M GOING BACK TO THE ANECDOTE YOU SPOKE OF AT THE BEGINNING.
YOU SAID YOU WERE DRAWING ON THE CLASSROOM FURNITURE AND THE TEACHER SAID, USE MY TYPEWRITER.
I'M THINKING ABOUT THE STORY YOU ARE TELLING ME.
IF THAT BOY HAD DRIVEN -- DRAWN ON FURNITURE, WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED?
>> HE GOT WRITTEN UP FOR EVERYTHING FROM TAPPING HIS PENCIL TOO LOUDLY ON THE DESK, SPENDING TOO LONG IN THE BATHROOM, SLAPPING A FRIEND IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD ON A DARE BECAUSE YOU ARE 14.
THAT'S A DETENTION.
IT STARTS TO ESCALATE.
PART OF WHAT IS SO ALARMING AND WHERE THE ROBINSON FAMILY REALLY HAD THIS RECKONING AS PARENTS THAT REFLECTS ON SUBURBAN DREAM WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, WE HAVE ORGANIZED OUR WHOLE LIVES, OUR EDUCATION, OUR CAREERS, OUR HOME, OUR FINANCES WHERE WE -- HOW WE ARE RAISING OUR CHILDREN AROUND ACCESS TO THIS DREAM IN SUBURBIA.
WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS IT'S KIND OF NOT WORKING.
IT'S NOT HAPPENING.
PART OF THE DISILLUSIONMENT THAT SO MANY FAMILIES ARE FEELING, ESPECIALLY SUBURBAN FAMILIES OF COLOR, IS WE HAVE DONE EVERYTHING RIGHT AND THERE'S STILL NO GOOD OPTIONS WHERE WE HAVE ACCESS TO ALL OF THESE OPPORTUNITY THAT SHOULD BE OURS, THAT THE COMMUNITY PROMISED, AND WHERE OUR CHILD IS NOT ONLY SAFE BUT IS RECOGNIZED, SEEN AND RESPECTED.
>> IT'S INTERESTING.
WE DON'T -- IT SEEMS LIKE WE DON'T HAVE AN INFRASTRUCTURE TO TALK ABOUT.
WHAT IS THE HOUSING DEPARTMENT -- THE FEDERAL HOUSING DEPARTMENT IS HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT.
IT'S NOT HOUSING AND EVERYBODY DEVELOPMENT OR HOUSING AND SUBURBAN DEVELOPMENT.
IT'S ALMOST AS IF WE HAVE THIS NOTION THAT THE WHOLE QUESTION OF RESOURCE BALANCE, RESOURCE ALLOCATION, IT'S AN URBAN ISSUE.
>> IT WAS REALLY FROM THE BEGINNING DEEPLY BAKED INTO THE OPERATIONS AND CULTURE OF PLACES TO DEFLECT SCRUTINY.
THEY WERE A BLAND PLACE WHERE PEOPLE RETREATED.
THAT IS -- IT'S DEEPLY ROOTED AND IT'S A PROBLEM.
THAT'S WHY WE ARE SO BAD AT TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN SUBURBIA NOW.
WHAT I DID SEE WHEN I GOT TO KNOW THESE FAMILIES AND SPENT TIMES IN THE COMMUNITIES AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS IS THAT EVERY COMMUNITY THERE WERE PARENTS WORKING ON THESE ISSUES.
SOMETIMES THAT MIGHT BE, WE NEED TO GET THE DRESS CODE RIGHT AT THIS SCHOOL.
I'M NOT GOING TO LET MY KID GET IN TROUBLE FOR WEARING BRAIDS.
SOME PLACES IT MIGHT BE, WE NEED A SCHOOL BOARD THAT LOOKS LIKE US.
SOME PLACES IT MIGHT BE, WE NEED TO REPAIR THE SEWER SYSTEM.
THERE ARE CITIZENS AND PEOPLE IN SUBURBIA ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY PARENTS, WHO ARE WORKING ON THIS.
YOU ARE RIGHT, WE DON'T HAVE A LARGE AND NATIONAL NARRATIVE THAT ALLOWS US TO CONNECT THE DOTS AND SEE HOW MY STRUGGLE, MY WORK, MY FIGHT TO IMPROVE MY COMMUNITY IS CONNECTED TO YOURS.
THAT'S PART OF WHAT I HOPE THIS WILL DO IS SHINE A LIGHT ON NOT ONLY THE PROBLEMS, BUT THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE ALREADY DOING TO ADDRESS THEM AND HELP US CONNECT TO EACH OTHER.
WE REALLY DO HAVE A NATIONAL SHARED PROBLEM.
>> ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS YOU SEE PLAYING OUT IN SCHOOL BOARDS AND PTA MEETINGS AND THESE CONFRONTATIONS OVER BOOKS AND CURRICULUM IS A PERSPECTIVE THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE THAT THEIR VERSION OF HISTORY, THEIR VERSION OF SOCIETY IS CORRECT.
THAT IS THE ONE THAT IS TO BE SUBSIDIZED.
DOES YOUR REPORTING INDICATE A WAY OUT THAT WAS, WHAT SEEMS TO BE A BINARY?
FRANKLY, A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT ON THE PART OF SOME THAT OTHER PEOPLE -- THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE.
>> PART OF WHAT HAPPENS FOR ME, WHEN I STARTED DOING THE RE-EXAMINATION OF MY OWN EXPERIENCE, MY FAMILY'S INVOLVEMENT IN THIS DYNAMIC, IT'S VERY PAINFUL.
A DIFFERENT SET OF CONVERSATIONS WITH MY FATHER.
HE TOLD ME AT ONE POINT EXPLAINING THE CONDITION HE LEFT THE HOUSE IN, I WASN'T INTERESTED IN BEING A GOOD COMMUNITY PERSON.
THAT WAS PART OF HOW I GREW UP.
PART I WHAT I HAD TO UNLEARN IN ORDER TO WRITE THE BOOK.
IT SHOWED UP MOST DIRECTLY IN MY RELATIONSHIP WITH BETHANY SMITH.
SHE FOUND HERSELF ALL OF A SUDDEN CONFRONTED NOT WITH THIS GENEROUS SOCIAL CONTRACT BUT WITH THE BURDENS LEFT BEHIND.
WHEN WE WOULD TALK ABOUT THIS, WE WOULD -- THE RELATIONSHIP EVOLVES.
WE WOULD TALK.
IT BECAME VERY PERSONAL.
SHE SAID EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING TO ME.
SHE SAID, I'M VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THIS, WITH THIS IDEA OF YOU AS A WHITE MAN COMING IN TO TELL THIS STORY AND TAKE IT AWAY AND TELL IT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSES.
SHE WAS RIGHT.
IT WAS A REPETITION OF THAT PATTERN.
ONCE I KNEW THAT PATTERN AND WHAT IT WAS, I WAS ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE ACCURACY OF WHAT SHE WAS SAYING.
WE RECONFIGURED THE WAY WE WORKED TOGETHER.
SHE ENDED UP WRITING THE EP EPILOGUE.
I LEARNED TO NOT ONLY SEE MY OWN EXPERIENCES IN A DIFFERENT WAY BY CONSIDERING THEM SIDE BY SIDE WITH OTHERS, MY OWN EXPERIENCES AS A WHITE MIDDLE CLASS SUBURBAN CHILD, BY COMPARING THEM WITH OTHERS, BUT ALSO BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DREAM ABOUT A COMMUNITY AND WHAT IT CAN BE.
THERE ARE WAYS TO HAVE A NOTION OF COMMUNITY THAT IS ABOUT INTERGENERATIONAL CONTRACT, THAT IS ABOUT MAKING SURE YOU LEAVE BEHIND SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD FOR WHO IS GOING TO FOLLOW.
THAT WAS -- IT'S NOT HOW I GREW UP.
I HAD TO UNLEARN A LOT OF WHAT I GREW UP WITH AND LEARN SOMETHING NEW.
WE DO THAT BY ALLOWING OURSELVES TO HEAR THESE CONVERSATIONS AND STORIES FROM OTHER PEOPLE.
NOT EVERYONE IS WILLING TO DO THAT.
BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE.
>> BENJAMIN, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
IT WAS A PLEASURE.
>> THAT'S A REALLY INTERESTING COMMUNITY INVESTIGATION.
REALLY IMPORTANT.
>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, IT IS PANCAKE TUESDAY.
IN MANY NATIONS THAT CELEBRATE EASTER, CARNIVAL SEASON IS IN FULL SWING.
THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PERFORMERS FILLING THE STREETS OF RIO FOR THEIR CELEBRATIONS WITH SOME REVELLERS ARRIVING ON GLAMOROUS FLOATS AND DRESSED HEAD TO TOE IN FLAMBOYANT OUTFITS, SEQUINS, FEATHERS.
SAMBA DANCERS HERE.
12 SCHOOLS VIE FOR THE CARNIVAL CHAMPIONS TITLE.
>>> IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.
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